On sunday evening my home phone rang and it was Mrs Botha who spoke. She I apologised to her for not replying to her emails, saying that I was drowning in website issues of late. She said she understood.

She asked me if she could give out my telephone number to certain people, and I said yes, definitely. I must tell you all, that the PERSONAL SUPPORT I have been receiving from former President PW Botha and his wife, is really AWESOME! They have actually been telling people about me of their own accord, spreading word of my website and my newsletter. It is something I never expected, and I am awed by it. I have always said that in the 26 years that I have lived in this country, that President Botha was the only President we had that I admired, and now I am getting a chance to speak to this old man who has seen so much, and done so much. It is such an honour for me to get a chance to learn from someone who has walked a path, especially the kind of path he walked, where he had so much opposition and trouble to contend with.

As I said to a friend in Cape Town: If you get a chance to learn from older folk then do so. There is much you can pick up from people who have lived through difficult times. And in this country, where NOBODY writes or is allowed to discuss in detail, certain historical issues (for fear of prosecution or persecution), don’t forget that there is a *LOT* of knowledge and experience out there in the form of former Govt Officials, Police, Military and Intelligence people. All their knowledge and experiences are inside their heads… which is a great shame, but unfortunately, this is the situation we are in. So if you ever get a chance to befriend any of these people, then ask them questions and learn from them. There is a lot of valuable knowledge out there, which we should accumulate. Knowledge is of course power, and nowhere is that more important than in the Miliary and Political arenas where our fate will be decided. We need to gather together all that “forbidden knowledge” from the past, not just for historical purposes and for setting the historical record straight, but also for future inspiration and insight.

I learned much from Dr Chris Jordaan, who spent time in Military Intelligence. He even went and took part in intelligence conferences in Europe. He is a professional of the highest order, and yet, I pick his brain whenever I can because I know I am tapping into the mind and experiences of someone with deep knowledge and much practical experience.

When I wrote my book, I made a business of seeking out former S.African Military people to ask them questions. I spoke to Colonels and even a General, and I loved every moment of it. Some of those Military Officers are incredibly well educations. Take Piet Libenberg for example. He is a Professor, but in the military he was a Commandant (Lt. Colonel). So these people can not only talk about THEORY, but also about how things are applied in the real world.

I must tell you a quick story. I have a good friend overseas, in a country I shall not name. He is in the military there. And I told him the one day that I love talking to soldiers because soldiers are the ones who were right there on the front line. They will tell you exactly what they saw. Soldiers are a mine of information. Some people read what journalists write, or what some politician tells them… but me, I seek out the Military/Intelligence people, because they are the ones who really know because they can talk from first-hand experience.

Mrs Botha handed over the phone to PW Botha, and we started talking. At times, I sat back and could hardly believe that I was sitting chatting to a former President. I must tell you, as Cliff Saunders said… that PW Botha’s health is pretty amazing for a man of 90.

PW Botha chatted to me for over an hour – non-stop – and he was even livelier than in that interview he did with Cliff Saunders. He was talking fast, thinking fast, and the facts were rolling off his tongue. We spoke in Afrikaans and then switched to English. It was really enjoyable. I said to him afterwards that I do have the ability to tape phone calls, but unfortunately, I did not interrupt him so as to go and switch on the recorder. I wished I had recorded some of the many things he said. He was in politics for over 50 years, and he travelled a lot in that time and met many people and he has so much insight and first-hand experience.

I grabbed a magazine and began writing notes on the back of it as he spoke, and later my mother brought me a notepad where I made other notes.

When I wrote Government by Deception in 2001, I did so with the aim of writing down, and recording things which nobody else might ever have the chance to do again. That was only 5 years ago, but even that short while back, life was quite different. Nobody was saying much… we were all huddled in our little corners, wondering what the ANC had in store for us. So I decided I would interview what people I could find, and write things down as bluntly as they were told to me, protecting the identities of the people who felt the need to be protected. But the mission I set myself was to record what I was told as accurately as possible because nobody might ever get the chance to write those fact down again.

And so, herewith, in the same vein, I will continue, and I will record as best I can from my shoddy notes, some of the things which President Botha and I discussed.

There is a hero I must tell you about – a man I did not know anything about (and still know too little about), and he was Salazar, the Prime Minister of Portugal. My barber, who fought in Angola, told me about him. He said that when Salazar ruled Portugal, he was determined to *NEVER* give up Angola or Mozambique. He would fight to keep them to the end. PW Botha told me that in 1967 he visited Salazar in Portugal and that he found Salazar to be an awesome guy. Salazar told him, “Africa is on fire… and it will burn itself out”. That is a pretty good prediction wouldn’t you say? Look at Africa? From north to south, east to west… war and strife everywhere… hundreds of thousands dead here… and millions dead over there… and still the killing goes on… Salazar knew what he was talking about.

As an aside, I remember reading that some time in the late 1960’s and early 1970’s… there were moves afoot for South Africa, Portugal and Rhodesia to co-operate militarily! Now, I recently read that Spain, under Franco, also backed Portugal and indirectly supported South Africa.

So keep that in mind… that the Portuguese and even the Spanish were on our side once!

I intend making contacts with more Portuguese people, and please keep the Portuguese in mind, they are also a part of our White Tribe of Africa.

PW Botha told me that he said to Salazar, “You people in theory practise a policy of inclusion but in practise you practise a policy of dominance, and that is why you will lose your colonies.”

Salazar was very interested in what PW Botha had to say, and he asked him to pass his thoughts on to another Govt Minister. But when PW did, this other Minister laughed at him. However, as PW says, the Portuguese ended up losing their colonies.

I mentioned to PW Botha that my research into the CIA’s activities reveals that as far back as 1962, Allard Lowenstein said that Angola and Mozambique should be handed over to the blacks so that the “front line” can move closer to South Africa so that more pressure can be brought to bear on South Africa itself.

I mentioned to PW Botha that I had wondered what role the CIA AND KGB might have played in causing the coup in 1975 in Portugal which resulted in a military leader, General Spinoza I think, coming to power. He was not in power for long before he fled for his life. But in his short time in power he actually did an “FW De Klerk” on Portugal and overnight he abandoned both Angola and Mozambique… a disaster of the most awesome kind for Portugal… but… pretty much what the CIA had been wanting for a long time… PW Botha agrees that there is no question that there was some intelligence funny business happening in Portugal.

So you see, its not just South Africa or Rhodesia which was sunk… but Portugal too. In many ways, their disasters and losses were even bigger.

But to reiterate, PW Botha had nothing but kind words and praise for Mr Salazar.

Chatting to PW Botha I find that no only does he tell me details of history I don’t know, but of course he participated in so many things, and

I’m trying to write as much of our conversation down as I can while it is fresh in my memory. I will also split it into smaller bits to touch on specific topics.

I asked President Botha if I could phone him in the future if I had questions and he said yes. So when I need to clarify certain things, I will definitely make use of that option, because it will also help for some of us to settle in our minds certain matters. Jan]