[During our conversation, President Botha mentioned Nelson Mandela quite a few times. He says that he has never met Mbeki, but he has spoken to Mandela many times, and also sat with him in the same room on a couple of occasions.

It appears as if Nelson Mandela has made quite an effort on a number of occasions to speak to President Botha. I find this quite interesting. Given that PW Botha was sidelined by De Klerk, and that the media pretended that he was dead… one would wonder why would Mandela go to all the trouble of being so friendly to a “President who does not exist”? Why isn’t he being chummy with De Klerk? Or is it that perhaps… Mandela and others RESPECT PW Botha and know that he carries some kind of clout which perhaps FW De Klerk does not?? I am merely hypothesising here.

I mentioned in another post that Mandela phoned PW Botha and thanked him for what he did for Mozambique.

But Mandela actually visited PW Botha at his home TWICE. The one time alone, and the other time in the company of General Constand Viljoen.

In PW’s DVD interview, he states that Mandela asked him to return to politics to “lead the National Party”. Quite a strange request hey? PW said the same thing to me. He said Mandela came and asked him to return to politics.

Before I forget, Mandela also asked PW to attend the TRC (Truth and Reconciliation Commission). Mandela actually phoned him and asked him to take part, but PW refused. They took him to court, and PW won.

PW said that Mandela spent several hours talking to him in his home discussing this return to politics. On the one occasion, General Viljoen came with him.

PW said to Mandela that he does not agree with his way of doing things, and that he would therefore NOT return to politics.

I asked PW why Mandela did this. PW says that he had pondered this point himself many times and the only conclusion he can reach is that perhaps Mandela was trying to win him over so that he would come over to “their way of thinking” and working with them. My interpretation of what PW said is that perhaps Mandela hoped PW would behave in a more “De Klerk-like way”.

But you know, even that… makes me wonder. Why would Mandela prefer PW leading the NP to FW or Kortbroek? Why ask him to come out of retirement?

Or is it… that deep down, Mandela and the CIA and others know something that we don’t? Could it be… that deep down… they know that De Klerk is not “fully representative” of White/Afrikaner views… and that having PW take part would add to the “legitimacy” of ANC rule?

Why was Constand Viljoen there? Remember… Viljoen did work in parliament with Mandela… (until he finally got fedup and walked out disgusted)… In my book, I did mention that I felt that General Viljoen was being lied to by Mandela. I said that in my opinion, Mandela’s offers to “discuss an Afrikaner Homeland” were disingenuous, and that in the end, Mandela did not have any intention of giving the Afrikaners so much as one grain of sand. So if we look at what Mandela did to Viljoen and how *FURIOUS* Viljoen was, after 7 years of wasted talks… then maybe PW Botha would have just wasted his time as well and nothing good would ever have come of it?

So maybe Viljoen was there to also try to convince PW to take part. If “hardline” PW works with the ANC… then it looks like everyone kissed and made up and we all lived happily ever after?

Either way, it did not work. PW told Mandela that he does things differently and he has different values and therefore he cannot be a part of that.

I must mention that in my CIA R&D, I did discover that in 1995, an officer in the US Marines drew up a plan for how the USA could intervene in South Africa in the event of a collapse of the Mandela-led Govt. There seemed to be genuine fears in American circles in the early years after 1994, that whites might rebel. They anticipated a possible race war, and made plans for sending in the US Marines to keep whites and blacks apart.

I must add, that PW also did not miss the opportunity to lecture to Mandela either! (I am chuckling as I write this…)

PW says that on both occasions he told Mandela to his face, that he must “watch out for Communism and Islam”. PW says that when he said this to Mandela, Mandela got a strange look on his face, as if PW was a snake.

PW then said something emphatically to me, which I really feel I must pass on to the rest of you.

Let me take a step back… I mentioned in my book, Government by Deception, that someone told me, Nelson Mandela *HATED WHITES*. Now remember the “remarkable change” which he underwent… his “transformation” … which amazed everyone… as he became a “forgiving saint”…?

Well, in 2001, I met with someone who had been a part of the negotiations and he was the one who told me this. He said that during talks, Nelson Mandela would get extremely angry, and the words out of his mouth would be “sheer poison”. They would have to break quite often to give Mandela a chance to calm down. Keep in mind that Mandela formed MK and declared war on the previous Govt on 16th December 1961. Remember… the war which ended in 1994 was started by Nelson Mandela himself. So the man must have serious motivation, which people these days downplay or ignore completely.

Well, the person I discussed this with and who told me this, but warned me that if I used his name, he would DENY IT COMPLETELY, was none other than General Tienie Groenewald who ran Military Intelligence for 20 years.

Until today, nobody has ever been able to confirm the view that Mandela truly hates whites. But today, President Botha told me a very similar thing. He told me that he has met Mandela face to face and talked to him at length for hours, and he has watched his reactions. Now keep in mind that Mandela, in his book, Long Walk to Freedom DENIES being a communist. And I’ve seen that the CIA FIRMLY BELIEVES HIS DENIAL. I’ve seen this in the book I was reading about Lowenstein. Mandela was interviewed in London by a white woman, and she passed on that interview to the Americans. In that interview he denied being a communist. The Americans eventually accepted Mandela’s story. And these days it is now “officially believed” by all that Mandela is not a communist.

Well, President Botha said to me TWICE in our discussion, that he is FIRMLY CONVINCED that Nelson Mandela is “a Communist AND a Terrorist”. He said that twice, and he emphasised the word TERRORIST. He said this is his conclusion, based on a face-to-face assessment of Mandela.

I must add another footnote to this story. During the days when I was trying to help the Zimbabweans in South Africa, there was a point where they made contact with someone in President Mbeki’s office. This man they made contact with became very friendly with them. They heard the following story from him about Nelson Mandela: He told them, that in 1994, when Nelson Mandela became President, that Mandela was determined to turn this country into a Communist state immediately, but that America, Britain and the Western world came down on Mandela like a ton of bricks, and strong-armed him out of it.

Now if some of you will cast your minds back, there may be truth to this story. Do you remember how, shortly afterwards, there were announcements that the Russians would co-operate MILITARILY with South Africa? They were going to exchange tank and aircraft technology. I remember news broadcasts about how our planes were going to get Russian engines. The Russian Airforce even came here for manoevres! But all of that disappeared quietly… did you notice that? Those things happened under Mandela’s rule… and its not happened since! I’ll bet that the CIA was watching that and doing some strong-arm moves on the quiet to stop that sort of thing and that’s why it doesn’t happen any more.

The nice thing about President Botha is that he is direct and to the point – no nonsense – no pussy-footing around – just like Ian Smith was. This is as straight a story as you will ever get, and I hope people appreciate this kind of honesty because this is what we all need so badly.

I mentioned Zuma and PW Botha said that of course, he is an outright communist like Mandela. He also spoke about the coming fight in the ANC/SACP/Leftist ranks… the division which I have spoken of and discussed.

But Mbeki is a different kettle of fish. This was first pointed out to me also by General Groenewald, but I didn’t believe him at first. Now I see how right he was! PW Botha said that we must not forget that Mbeki was trained in England and America. He was the “propagandist” of the ANC, putting a nice face on the organisation.

I then asked President Botha what he thought of my theory and research that Mbeki might have CIA and MI6 links. He answered “Definitely!”

We discussed Zuma, and the fact that he is more charismatic than Buthelezi. We both agreed that Buthelezi is not a good speaker – he is difficult to understand. He may have many intelligent things to say, but he rushes through his speeches and so much of the good is lost. PW Botha said it was sad that the Zulus were now divided between Buthelezi and Zuma and that with Buthelezi aging, he hinted that maybe Zuma has the upperhand and the Zulus will turn more and more to him.

Incidentally, regarding Islam, which PW Botha feels is a very dangerous force, he told me of a meeting he had with the President of the Ivory Coast when he was in power. He liked the president of the Ivory Coast a lot and respected his intelligence and his views. He said this man had also spoken to him about the dangers of Islam and what a powerful force this could be. I don’t know when the meetings took place, but it was probably 20(43)+ years ago!!

As a Christian, PW Botha feels that Islam must be countered.

I mentioned to PW Botha that my friend in the USA, Jeff Nyquist, as well as some Military/Intelligence contacts that I have in the Middle East, have the theory (which I subscribe to), that Militant Islam is another Russian export (like the so-called Liberation of Africa was). PW Botha thought this was very possible. He definitely saw a major threat in Islam, and even spoke about this, from a Biblical point of view that perhaps these are “the end times” and “Armageddon”. He said I should read the book of Ezekiel. I agree with him, that we could be heading to that sort of situation.

By the way, President Botha also mentioned Henry Kissinger. I think I can convey his view of Kissinger best by saying that he thought of him as being almost a “clown”.

President Botha confirmed that Henry Kissinger had made him a personal promise that the CIA would mine Luanda harbour so that the Russian ships could not unload all the military weapons which they were sending to the communists in Angola. Kissinger promised this, and the theory was that by having America cut off the weapons, South Africa would support Jonas Savimbi’s UNITA and in that way America and South Africa would see to it that the MPLA was destroyed, the communists driven out and Angola would be taken over by pro-Western blacks, under Savimbi. But then the American Congress turned down the idea of mining of Luanda harbour. And so… the Russian weapons flowed in… and South Africa had to help Savimbi anyway. (One friend of mine who was in the South African Airforce tells me that the CIA did pay much of the costs of our war in Angola).

PW Botha said that he asked Henry Kissinger for an apology afterwards! Kissinger just said that congress had overridden him and there was nothing he could do. (We Rhodesians know all about Kissinger’s promises – saying one thing today and changing his mind tomorrow).

Anyhow, I though PW was being kind by referring to Kissinger’s “clown-like” antics! Some of us would have said even worse things about Kissinger!

PW Botha and I also discussed what sort of political solution could really work in southern Africa, along with thoughts on co-operating with different black tribes. I’ll post that later. Jan]